RULES of Web DESIGN?

[cben]

I initially spent countless hours designing my site to be cross browser....but couldnt get exactly the same layout.
You resize this and it looks OK in IE, but shifts on Netscape,
go back and specify it like that and looks great on Netscape but not on IE...back and forth...back and forth....

Then I looked at my web stats that indicated that 98% of my users were on IE and the rest divided among 10 other browsers.

So...where does one draw the line? Who do you design for?

There is a Murphy's Law on technology that states that: " if you design something that even an IDIOT could use...guarantees that only an idiot WOULD use it".
Its funny.... but there is a grain of truth there.

Am I (WE) to design for peope who still run I.E. v 1.0, ?
(they are out there you know........)

Is your house or anything today...designed for/around the horse and buggy? NO!
Maybe 100 years ago....

Because of my site's content, (Cad) my site's users ( I can assume) by definition are tech sabby. I expect them to know how to upgrade their browsers. My browser stats of 98% IE proves that...so I STOPPED designing fro Netscape.
Does that mean the IE is better? In some ways... in others Netscape.
Remember BETAmax vs VHS? It just so happens that technically BETA was better than VHS.....but the market went with the one that was more dominant just like IE vs Netscape.

However technology moves at a fast pace and one pays a price if you stay behind AND if you are too advanced. Does that suggest a middle ground? Then.....what is it?

[(jj)]

Let me answer you this way.

If you design to be 100% standards complient, then it won't work in IE (any version)

Yes, IE has the lions share of the browser market "today", but what about tomorrow. The buzz is that MS is planning on doing a redesign of IE, nobody knows what those changes will be.

Personally, I design using Mozilla and then make sure it works in IE. Using CSS style sheets and hacks that I've found or came up with, I tend to get a site to where it's decent for most all browsers.

You forgot one browser, Safari. It is becoming more and more popular and there has even been talk about it being ported to a Windows base.

As far as the older browsers (v3 and lower), I don't tend to worry about those anymore, although they are still used quite a bit.

[tbonekkt]

Originally posted by (jj)
You forgot one browser, Safari. It is becoming more and more popular and there has even been talk about it being ported to a Windows base. As one of the resident Mac users here, I feel the need to respond to this. ;)

I seriously doubt it'll be ported to Windows, at least not by Apple. I freqeunt a couple Mac communities and this is a widespread, debated question. Personally, I don't see any reason for Apple to port it. With iTunes, there was a reason - to drive up sales of music through the iTunes Music Store and therefore iPods. But Apple wouldn't have anything to really gain from porting Safari.

There is an ongoing (supposedly) project to port a KHTML-based browser to Win32, but it hasn't done anything to date. Check that out here - http://sourceforge.net/projects/khtml-win32/

[mjp]

Originally posted by (jj)
Yes, IE has the lions share of the browser market "today", but what about tomorrow. The buzz is that MS is planning on doing a redesign of IE, nobody knows what those changes will be. IE came to prominence for two reasons, 1) Netscape slowed development for various reasons (and stopped completely for a time, leaving users with one of the buggiest versions ever), and 2) IE is/was on the desktop of every new PC sold for many years. Now the tables seem to be reversed. MS has stopped all work on IE (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/news/20030601.html) and will not release a new version until their new OS is ready (estimated to be sometime in 2006). Mozilla (Netscape), on the other hand, continues to develop, and the standalone browser Firebird is superior in most ways to any version of IE.

So MS stands to lose a big share of their browser monopoly over the next year and a half. But the majority of people will continue to use IE just because it's there, and it kind of, mostly works...most of the time. MS knows that. Why else would they completely abandon work (even bug fixes) on IE? They are confident that they now own the browser market.

Just like Netscape used to be...

[XJnick]

I too was frustrated over the design difficulties when dealing with IE and the Mozilla based browsers.

I currently use Mozilla Firebird (http://www.mozilla.org/products/firebird) as my primary browser, so naturally I design for it then make sure the site looks good in IE. :D

One huge help was learning of he <!DOCTYPE> tag in IE that appears to force it into a more standard HTML compliance mode. After using it, my site layout appears almost the same in both Mozilla and IE :D

I can't wait for Mozilla/Netscape to become more popular than IE.

[funny]

I can't wait for Mozilla/Netscape to become more popular than IE. As far as I'm concerned, it already is!

IE was always crashing my PC but since I've changed to Netscape, no probs... :cool:

[BerksWebGuy]

Don't like Netscape...but I also don't like Windows and IE (but use it anyway)...but I do check all my pages on IE and Netscape...cause you never what browser a potential customer may be using.

I think Netscape is alittle more picky...so if you design it in Netscape it will be darn close, if not exact, to IE.

[B&T]

One more opinion . . .

I test with IE6 and NS7.1 (NOT 7.0 as it is wayyy to buggy). NS7.1 being my non-IE test.

If I look good there . . . I go. I figure everything else will be good enough . . . and users of "other" browsers know they are not the primary audience out there.

I have been able to work with IE6 and NS7.1 without too much trouble getting the pages to look the same - with minor exceptions I can live with.

[XJnick]

That's why I like Mozilla. I've found that most sites seem to render the same in Mozilla & Netscape. So since I hate IE, and Netscape's latest browsers have been sort of buggy, Mozilla Firebird is what I use :D

Plus, It's cool to have a browser that doesn't need to be installed, but instead just runs from it's directory.

[Mirzabah]

Originally posted by cben
You resize this and it looks OK in IE, but shifts on Netscape,
go back and specify it like that and looks great on Netscape but not on IE...back and forth...back and forth....?'s comment about the <!DOCTYPE ...> tag is worth looking into.Originally posted by cben
One huge help was learning of he <!DOCTYPE> tag in IE that appears to force it into a more standard HTML compliance mode. After using it, my site layout appears almost the same in both Mozilla and IE :DBasically, IE by default uses a non-standard way of totting up the dimensions of boxes. if you use the appropriate <!DOCTYPE ...> tag at the start of your document, you force it into standards compliance.

Click here (http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/about-boxmodel.htm) to learn more. Believe me it will save you hours of frustration.

But to answer your question, I design for IE6 and Mozilla/Firebird. If it doesn't work in other browsers, then I don't care greatly.

Cheers,
Mirzabah.

[mjp]

Originally posted by Mirzabah
if you use the appropriate <!DOCTYPE ...> tag at the start of your document, you force it into standards compliance.

Click here (http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/about-boxmodel.htm) to learn more. Believe me it will save you hours of frustration. Or months of frustration... ;)

[XJnick]

Originally posted by Mirzabah
?'s comment about the <!DOCTYPE ...> tag is worth looking into.


" One huge help was learning of he <!DOCTYPE> tag in IE that appears to force it into a more standard HTML compliance mode. After using it, my site layout appears almost the same in both Mozilla and IE :D "

Yes, I said that above... <!DOCTYPE> tag makes IE play by the rules (at least some) :D