View Full Version : How many of us use Dreamweaver?
pwillner
5-25-02, 02:22 AM
I was just wondering how many others are using DW to build or maintain their site. I would think that DW is at least as popular as Frontpage now and I wouldn't mind seeing it have its own forum like the frontpage users. I have seen more and more questions lately concerning DW usage and think it would be useful to have one forum to search for solutions.
Both http://ups.manninc.com/ and http://www.powhelp.com are great resources and MannInc and sophiespo have out done themselves with these two sites. I think it would be a benifit and it just might help out with their tutorials by haveing a common forum. Sorry you two I might just be making more work for you :).
Any thoughts?
Pete
alphadesk
5-25-02, 02:41 AM
I don't have Dreamweaver, but have heard so many good things and virtually nothing bad. I may just have to bite the bullet and purchase it. I have Frontpage but really only use it to build tables and a few other things. I never use anything that requires the FP extensions. As far as a DW forum, I doubt if it will see near the traffic that the FP forum has for these reasons.
Sophie and Manninc have discussed somekind of merger of info, but don't know exactly where that stands at this time.
pwillner
5-25-02, 03:05 AM
alphadesk,
I understand what you're saying and it might prove to be true. I just wonder if with all the new users of both DW and Powweb it might be helpful to us "dual" newbies. Luckily "Dreamweaver" is long enough to bring back results in a search query. :)
Pete
bettyfordclinic
5-25-02, 11:12 AM
There really should be no discussion here. Frontpage is not a professional web editing application, Dreamweaver is. I work as a web designer, and we (sorry to be rude) laugh at frontpage.
I used to use Dreamweaver but now use Adobe's GoLive for my main sites. The GoLive interface allows me to work faster, and I just like it more.
So anyone who really wants to get into the web should use Dreamweaver (or GoLive). And there are plenty of support forums around for Dreamweaver, and you can always ask questions here as well). Try and get a demo and see how you like it. At first it will be harder (because it's not designed to provide such easy solutions as Frontpage) but it will let you go a lot further in terms of page editing and learning code (frontpage code is always messy).
bfc
DW is just lovely for all users.
The basic user will create a good-looking site with great ease. The professional will create/design anything and DW helps with coding and placing of items. There are small things which are very helpful and once you get used to it...your get drunk of DW.
Frontpage is like using MS Word...the software does what it is programmed to do. It could be a good start-up for beginners with standard templates.
Anyway...should someone require info/problems with DW feel free to post or contact me.
There seems to be a demand for DW so if anyone wants/wishes to try DW contact me by email.
Here's my two cents. Dreamweaver is great if you are not a profesional Web developer/designer. And I'm not -- but even I've seen how the code it generates is not always good for whatever site is being put up. It's SO worth it to learn html the hard way -- reading a book and coding by hand. Homesite seems the best to me -- part wysiwyg, part code-it-yourself but with lots of helpers. And it's cheaper.
I have to disagree with you.
DW is useful even to Professional becuase it enables you to access the code very easily and modify it accordingly, supports .css & .js etc....
I am a semi-professional on html & believe me if you learn how to use DW properly, it is meant for the profesional and less experienced users.
bettyfordclinic
5-26-02, 07:34 PM
Hmmmm. I'm also going to disagree with you kit, although I do understand your point. And hand coding is something to be respected.
I find the code Dreamweaver and GoLive create to be pretty danged good, but it's important for me to be able to look at the source html on a continous bases and make sure that what I'm using is efficient and correct. With this in mind, I agree that coding by hand is useful, but I think that the fast correlation between WYSIWYG and source code often helps beginners (and pros) learn code faster.
And you must remember that a lot of people here are looking at Dreamweaver as an alternative to FRONTPAGE!!! And I'll presume you've seen the code nightmare that Frontpage produces!!!
Dreamweaver is certainly the lesser of two evils, and a much faster way towards a better understanding of html and the web than coding by hand.
bfc
Ok. I give up. And I'll even admit I use DW for mouse-over stuff. I'm, just really mad at it right now because it totally crashes my computer (hey, it's not my fault I have to run Homesite, Photoshop, WS_ftp, Word, Illustrator, notepad, netscape, and ie, all at the same time....
Plus i have to have an actual fan ON my opened up hard drive because there's some malfunction that i can't personally fix and it overheats, PLUS my keyboard is really gross and left side Shift is stuck.
Phew. I feel better now. Think i'll go give my keyboard a bath.
bettyfordclinic
5-26-02, 08:16 PM
Sweet Mercy Kit, you live in a world of pain!!!!!!
Nice application list!!! I was in the same place earlier on in the week with GoLive, Photoshop, Illustrator, DeBabelizer, Word, Simpletext, Transmit, and Explorer all open for a web job. Strange how even on different OS's (I'm Mac) the list is pretty much the same (transmit is my FTP and simpletext is the Mac Notepad app). DeBabelizer (graphic app) was in the game because it scales images better than Photoshop (I was doing critical scaling on small text).
bfc
(how much RAM you running???)
I've hand coded, used Homesite 4.5 (hated that!), Web Page Construction Kit 5, and Dreamweaver 4. I'll vote for DW4. With it you can switch between hand coding and autopilot. I like that.
My toolbox includes DW4, Flash 5 and MX (for both animation and straight illustration), and PaintShop Pro 7. I have Fireworks, but never use it. I have Illustrator but never use it. I have Freehand, but only use it for stuff I can't do in Flash.
A good way to do nice looking web graphics: draw everything in Flash (including fountain fills) as a 1-frame "movie", save as a PNG file, convert the PNG to GIF in PaintShop Pro and export the GIF with 256 colors and 100% dithering. Here's a simple example (http://dogbros.public-eyes.com/dblogo.gif). Pretty clean, no?
bettyfordclinic
5-27-02, 10:00 AM
That's pretty clean all right. I do the same thing, except I use Illustrator to create the vector graphics. I'll then export as photoshop an splice for the web (why neither of use uses Fireworks anymore), or if I want it to be really sharp I'll export as 150dpi to photoshop and then scale it using Debabelizer. Illustrator and Flash are nice as drawing applications, but I have to admit that for personal stuff I try and run the whole game from Photoshop. Just because I'm more comfortable with it......
bfc
I don't know how you manage to use photoshop...i hate it escpecially with not vectoring...
Funilly enough I use paint shop pro 7.04 for all my graphics work being 100dpi rgb or 300dpi cmyk.
I an create anything with little trouble....the only disadvantage is the exessive memory requirements.
bettyfordclinic
5-27-02, 10:58 AM
I really use pure photoshop for my "home" work. And I just tend to not bother doing vector based stuff from home (I used photoshop before I used Illustrator so I find it more "comforting":)). And if I really need to I can always create shape layers in photoshop, which are essentially a basic form of vectoring.
I'm in happy memory land at the moment. Two hard drives with about 110GB (I actually forget the exact size, and they're partitioned so it's hard to count) and 1GB of RAM. This little Mama can do just about anything!!!
bfc
There is nothing wrong with Frontpage for inexperienced web builders, I used it for 2 years, since finding and buying Dreamweaver 3 and then upgrading to version 4, I threw out my Frontpage software. The difference is night and day.
Over the years, I have used Notepad, FrontPage 97 (for a week or so), Arachnophilia, Visual Page, Dreamweaver, GoLive, and several other apps... Dreamweaver is BY FAR the best of them. Already mentioned is the power of the program, as well as the ease of use. But there's more...
The user community is immense, and there is no shortage of people willing and eager to help you if you get stuck. Not only that, but a lot of them are quite intelligent, and create amazing extensions for the software which are downloadable for free.
Which brings up another aspect of what makes Dreamweaver so cool. If you know javascript and/or xml, you can completely customize your program. Menus, interactions with other programs (like Fireworks or Homesite), controls, options, and dialog boxes... even palettes. Essentially, you can create a customized version of Dreamweaver with Macromedia's blessing.
Dreamweaver is THE developer's tool, and not just because it impresses right out of the box...
pwillner
5-27-02, 02:47 PM
It's nice to see that many of the people who I count on for solid general support and feed back use DW. For some reason I had the impression that many of the more experianced people here were hand coders etc. and that DW and the like were just starting points for learning page building.
Thanks for all the great responses, it's very interesting to see the differant programs we all use to get to the same result.
Pete
the differant programs we all use to get to the same result
let me correct this statement:
the differant programs we all use to try and get to the same result....because there are various levels of websites!
Originally posted by alphadesk
Sophie and Manninc have discussed somekind of merger of info, but don't know exactly where that stands at this time.
I don't believe that there will be a merger of info as the powhelp site has now moved to it's own domain and (I believe) wishes to remain it's own help site.
The PowHelp site is also not hosted here, which my main reason for keeping my site here, under PowWeb.
Great thread ladies and gents. I have had DW for a couple years....opened once and said yikes and closed. Truth be known I have been working in a proggy called Cool Page...<I can hear ya all laughing now> well it worked as a wysiwyg for me cuz I just couldn't get into learning to create in a pro editor. Gave me a headache just to look at html.
About 2 months ago I finally opened up a program called First Page by Eversoft and it is working pretty well for me...I think! lol
Keep in mind I really don't know what the heck I'm doing. Was thinking about getting my hands on Front Page and tryin it out after seeing all the support offered here for it but have heard before about it messing up code and don't need any more headaches then I already have ...and can't say I would know a messed up code if I saw one. But I think I will open up DW and check it out again. Thanks for the debate and discussion here.~S~ You may be seeing alot of me around the forum here since although I have operated a subdomain www.cosmicdancer.therapids.net
I am clueless with alot in my POW package! ~LiiLa
esccanada
5-29-02, 12:21 AM
Well you and I are moving in opposite directions.
I tried 1st Page 2000 for a while before DW4UD. It was a really great program but I fell in love with DW.
Not to mention that Evrsoft never replied to any emails I sent them. Guess I got what I paid for! ;)
pwillner
5-29-02, 01:01 AM
The end result I think most if not all of us are shooting for is to build a web site. Without a doubt we all posses different levels of expertise but I don't believe that one should be judged without asking for it. Many of us are building our first site and whether you or anyone else likes it or not might not be important to myself or whoever is in question.
If there is a web site building competition going on please let me know so I may humbly withdraw. This is my first site and it sucks, but its mine.:)
Pete
when i corected your ststement I did not go into your website....to be honest I did not enter your site till now & I am too busy to go even I write this post.
It is just normal that some sites are much much better than others. You can't expect a professional ana a beginner to produce the same results if they have the same tools.... i.e. DW
pwillner
5-29-02, 05:28 AM
I accept that and I believe I understand what you are intending to say. I just feel that as long as the majority of us here are building sites for ourslves and not for resale then our main goal is to get a working site published with a secondary goal being a "professional" image. As for myself I worked offline for far too long. If I had uploaded my site sooner I would have made much larger gains much sooner.
I would hate to see someone keep their site offline for fear that someone bash it for not meeting some nonexistent standard. The single most productive tool I have used thus far has been the feedback of friends, family etc. I feel that soon I will be at a point where I will feel confortable enough to ask for the opinions of others on this board. For some this is a very large step. Opening oneself to the possible criticisms of strangers is not exactly inviting.
I respect the opinions of many of the people on this board. I for one, do visit the sites of many of the other board members because I find it to be an asset to get a "feel" for that member. (yes I've been to your site several times) I hope to soon join the ranks of others who are proud of the time and effort that they have put into their site.
My goal is June 1st. If it wasn't for the help and responses I have recieved here, I would be much farther behind in attaining my goal.
This board has been a valuable asset to me and I have recommended it to others I know. I would like it to be an asset to others who follow and hope to repay my debt by assisting those who I am able.
You will notice my URL is now listed below. You will also noticed I have yet to ask for opinions. :)
Pete
I am glad you visited my site.
If I want I can block all access to the source code by a simple command but I do not want to do this because that is how I learned (& still learn some new techniques).
Should you have any queries, feel free to ask!
bettyfordclinic
5-29-02, 10:30 AM
Hey pwillner
You're right, but I don't think that nmsupplies intended any offence.
I'm now a "professional" (but still not a great designer). Here, for the record, is the first site I ever made:
http://www.geocities.com/asbestosworld/
It's tacky and beautiful, we didn't know what we doing, and it was programmed half by hand and half using Netscape Composer. I think it's about four or five years old now, and remains virtually unchanged (and slightly unfinished). But we were proud to have made it, and everyone has to start somewhere.
bfc
I can understand you...this is my first site:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/2911/
That was in about 6 years ago...1996/97
It was fun...now it's work!
pwillner
5-29-02, 12:54 PM
If I want I can block all access to the source code by a simple command but I do not want to do this because that is how I learned (& still learn some new techniques).
I hope it didn't sound like I go to sites to steal code. I go to look at color combinations, layout, content etc. to see if I get a feel for what the owner might be like.
I don't think that nmsupplies intended any offence
And I don't think so either. I just feel for other people in my position. Building my first page has been challenging and I just don't want other newbies to think that they will get kicked in the shins before they start the race.:)
I apologize if I sounded harsh. It wasn't meant to be an attack. Just a clarification of why I meant my statement the way it was originally stated.
Side note....over time I have found that when I see certain people respond to a post, I read it even if it is a situation that may not pertain to something I am dealing with at the time. This is out of a respect for knowledge experiance etc. I respect both of your opinions here along with many others (too many to list) and will continue to look over your shoulders out of the utmost respect.
Pete
bettyfordclinic
5-29-02, 02:16 PM
If I see code I like in html, I "steal" it.
It's a way of people learning from each other, and quite acceptable.
I try not to copy desigfns, but that's a different kettle of fish.
Nmsupplies, I'm interested in how you were going to block the code, because I bet I could have got around it!!! :)
bfc
pwillner
5-29-02, 02:38 PM
If I see code I like in html, I "steal" it. It's a way of people learning from each other, and quite acceptable. Thats the differance between you and I, You know what to do with it and I don't.:)
I try not to copy desigfns, but that's a different kettle of fish.
On that topic I like the look of komik's page at http://mwsandracing.com/new/
I don't want the same images, colors etc. just the picture frame effect. Since I saw it there but had the idea prior to seeing it, is that considered unethical? (I don't want to steal the code even if it's possible. He just happened to hit my nail on the head in terms of his design).
Pete
P.S. He has little to worry about in terms of a knock-off, I have no clue how to recreate that effect.
bettyfordclinic
5-29-02, 02:54 PM
I don't think that just using a different sized curved frame with a drop shadow would be unethical. If you combined that with the same bg grid effect he's probably have words, but one aspect would be "open game" in my eyyes.
And I've seen drop shadow frames/boxes elsewhere before, so it's not that big a deal to use them (although that is very nice usage).
The effect could be recreated by combining a spliced photoshop output with smart background images in the table. Komik's code is good, and heavily commented for some helpful reason. I hope he doesn't mind us discussing it like this.....
bfc
bettyfordclinic...you don't know of the right mouse click block...if you don't I can try it on a page of mine & see if you manage to get the source code!!
pwillner
5-29-02, 04:28 PM
This is turning more into a chat then a DW topic.....
The effect could be recreated by combining a spliced photoshop output with smart background images in the table.
any idea where a newbie would find a decent tutorial on this?
Komik's code is good, and heavily commented for some helpful reason. I hope he doesn't mind us discussing it like this.....
I hope he would feel it is a compliment.
Pete
bettyfordclinic
5-29-02, 05:42 PM
Not to sure about the tutorials. Google will give you lots of choices and adobe probably have plenty too.
If you've got 5 or 6, just create a layer like the frame and apply a drop shadow effect. Then use the splice tool to cut up the image into whatever you deem necessary, but leaving a large single box splice in the centre of the frame (large enough for your text). export all the slices as low coloured GIFs (if it's a simple coloured design) and then edit the outputted page with a html editor. Delete the image in the middle of the frame and type in the space it's left.
There will be complications, and Komik's was more complex and clever, but that's the general idea. If you want an example photoshop file I'll provide.
bfc
pwillner
5-29-02, 06:05 PM
Then use the splice tool to cut up the image into whatever you deem necessary How do you determine what size ito splice?
Pete
bettyfordclinic
5-29-02, 06:11 PM
Hmmm
You just sort of get a taste for it. You don't want lots of tiny pieces, so the minimum wuold be four (top bottom left right). Personally I'd rather use morem since it makes the loading more interesting and I'm not a big fan of preloaders. If you have a logo at the top you'd probably splice that so that you coul dapply different compression as needed (8 colour GIF dor a plain background, then 64 colour GIF or a JPG for the logo). Generally splices will sort of work themselves out......
Watch pages that don't use preloaders load and you'll see different people's choices of splices.
bfc
I use Dreamweaver too. I probably use 1% of the features of it.
I'll learn more about it later maybe. I can see where it would be good for web designers who do it for a living.
I bought it from the Macromedia.com online store where I got held up. I found out shortly after I bought it that I could have got it much much cheaper at www.academicsuperstore.com (new) you have to be a student which I was at the time.
Oh I would have some questions alright if there were a Dreamweaver forum. :)
SanDiegoRail
5-30-02, 12:45 AM
As a newbie I used MSPublisher to do my site. I did HTML quite a few years ago but my time is now more important. I had a friend do a site for me using Dreamweaver and the file got so big I had to go in and manually delete duplicated commands. I am pleased to hear all the good stuff about Dreamweaver.
Any comments on MSPublisher?
Richard
alphadesk
5-30-02, 01:20 AM
Only use it if you can't use something else. It bloates the code even worse than Frontpage.
RSaucier
5-30-02, 01:45 AM
All this FP bashing! :)
I've been a FP user since it was a product of Vermeer (before MS got ahold of it).
Yeah, it used to do nasty things to code but finally, with FP 2002 (aka FP xp), it produces pretty clean code -- with the one exception that I've found of it REALLY wanting to use some extra attributes on tables.
OTOH, I've always found Dreamweaver (3) code to be ugly and difficult to clean up in UltraEdit. Maybe 4 improved things and MX built upon that...
To each his or her own though! :)
Robert
yzxc...you can post your dw problems by opening a new thread...we will help
Thanks for the offer I may do that pretty soon.
:)
esccanada
5-30-02, 01:23 PM
Maybe it's just me but I don't see the code bloat in DW4UD.
Of course it's probable that it's because I'm constantly working with both raw code and the designer view. Maybe I'm cleaning up a mess before it becomes one.
However, form what I've seen, DW does not code bloat as badly as FP. In FP's defence, it doesn't code bloat as badly as Word! :D
My major problem with DW so far is it's lack of support for XHTML.
bettyfordclinic
5-30-02, 02:07 PM
LOL. I just remembered seeing a page made in Word!!!!!
bfc
SBGlasby
5-30-02, 07:10 PM
haven't been around lately....
but of all the site's I've inherited .... DW.... even DW 3 has a command to removed unused tags.... and combine tags....
this is especially useful when cleaning up inherited sites... that were written with FP, WORD, ect......
http://www.metglas.com was done with so many client side includes.... and nested tags.... it was outrageous.... took forever to load in the browser.... and then only IE 5.0 , or NET4.7 or better......
the whole site was 5.6 M in code alone..... after cleaning it up... with DW 4.... it's now 540K...... all javascripts includes gone... now... it's all HTML.... only a couple of javascript history back calls......
averagte load time on a 56K dialup was about 40 secs per page.... now it's 10....
So I can definetly say.... DW doesn't BLOAT code...... but you have to run the command.... since DW allows a designer to do as he wishes.... even if he doesn't know what he's doing.... running the command will just remove wasted code.....
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