View Full Version : Moved to PowWeb
Neat Pete
3-30-07, 04:43 PM
This site has just been moved to PowWeb a few hours ago.
http://www.nsma.org.au/
Critiques and comments are welcome and (time permitting) will be replied to in this forum.
Kitchensink108
3-30-07, 05:42 PM
Whew. I kind of tore it apart. Take most of what I said with a grain of salt. As always, a lot of things are nit-picks.
The layout seems to be clean and functional. It works in 800x600 and 1024x768, and Firefox (the code, while not great, seems to be cross-browser compatible), so I think I can safely assume it'll work in all common browsers and resolutions.
However, the design isn't all that great. It's rather bland right now. First, with the banner, you might try doing something a bit more graphical. Right now it's just a low-quality GIF of a no-smoking sign followed by header text and smaller italicized sub-header text. My main suggestion for this would be to use a higher quality no-smoking sign and integrate it slightly better (right now, with its white background, it looks like it was just tossed on there). Also, the same image is shown at the bottom of the screen, except scaled to a different size. Because it's the exact same image, but a different size, it appears even more low quality than the top version and just looks bad.
Actually, I think just removing the bottom no-smoking sign might be a good idea. I think it'll look better if that box (containing the address and recently updated) was smaller.
I'd prefer content on the main page instead of links. It makes it really redundant as the same links are displayed right above the content area.
I don't see the point of the search page. You give a list of the most common smoking-related search terms on Google, but for no apparent reason. It kind of seems like you're trying to entice the user to search, like you're trying to get a user who wouldn't otherwise feel the need to use the search box to use it, and I'm not entirely certain what the point of that would be. It might be a better idea to make the search box smaller and include it on an out-of-the-way area on every page, as opposed to giving it its own page.
The no-smoking logo doesn't appear on every page. The bullets on the newsletters page don't show up. Double-check your URLs.
It's good that you're using some images, but your selection is really low and fairly low-quality First, as with the main logo, I suggest getting rid of the white background on books.gif. I think books.gif is overused a bit, too. For instance, I don't get why its used as a bullet for the links on the main page. rednecks.jpg is a disturbing image. On what's new, I suggest making it so the "new" image doesn't increase the line height. Right now it makes the page look messy.
This isn't really a problem, but ask yourself, why exactly would someone need to know the exact dates of the last 5 times a page was updated? On the rare occasions I've had to know the last modified date, which was for citing in essays, I would only ever need the most recent date.
The color scheme itself is kind of bland. The vast majority of the layout is composed of large areas of solid color, separated by hard borders. Things like shadows and gradients can help make transitions from one element to another smoother. This would require a lot more image creation and coding, which might be too much effort given for a couple reasons, but I'm just throwing the ideas out there.
You also kind of have a lot of colors going on. Two shades of green/turquoise for the top, a peach background, green text in the banner, red text in the banner, a different red for content headers, sometimes yellow/white/other colored images, some green section headers, some black text, and many many blue links. There doesn't seem to be much consistency (except in the fact that it's the same style across all the pages).
Standard bright blue underlined links are kind of a pet peeve of mine, and I don't think bolded versions of them look very good either.
Neat Pete
3-31-07, 03:46 AM
Dear Kitchensink108,
Many thanks for taking the time to look at so much of the site and make detailed comments. I will reply in more detail later but initially (a) I have edited the little red ball to at least get rid of the grey corners. (b) I have resolved to remove the "previously updated" info off all pages. It's not on all pages but it is about 45 pages, a big job, to be done gradually. So far I have done one page. (c) Today I'm just trying to settle it down and fix the 404 errors. The logos missing as you noted etc was a big problem, it's discussed on the general forum. testing about 10 days ago had not detected it. (d) The best free site scan is www.nikitathespider.com and I'm waiting on my reports from there now. It finds all the bad code and all the bad links. I couldn't request a scan until the missing logo file problem was fixed as it is on almost every page and seems to have triggered near to 1000 errors in the last day. Lucky the slate will wipe clean for April, that was the plan.
Neat Pete
Dear Kitchensink108,
Many thanks for taking the time to look at so much of the site and make detailed comments. I will reply in more detail later but initially (a) I have edited the little red ball to at least get rid of the grey corners. (b) I have resolved to remove the "previously updated" info off all pages. It's not on all pages but it is about 45 pages, a big job, to be done gradually. So far I have done one page. (c) Today I'm just trying to settle it down and fix the 404 errors. The logos missing as you noted etc was a big problem, it's discussed on the general forum. testing about 10 days ago had not detected it. (d) The best free site scan is www.nikitathespider.com and I'm waiting on my reports from there now. It finds all the bad code and all the bad links. I couldn't request a scan until the missing logo file problem was fixed as it is on almost every page and seems to have triggered near to 1000 errors in the last day. Lucky the slate will wipe clean for April, that was the plan.
Neat Pete
I agree with Kitchensink108 on the color scheme and the last five updates (but you have "resolved" to change that :) I think it's the page background color that's throwing a lot of it off....I think that simple tweak might make a huge difference. I think it's the peach with the red that's really throwing things off.
Also when I was surfing through the picture pages, I noticed that one page hadn't been updated in awhile. I would put a standard date update on all pages throughout, unless you are blogging or writing update articles, it's more uniform and it looks like the webmaster actually pops into the different pages to check on things. When I see a website dated many moons ago, I kinda wonder to myself, if the webmaster no longer cares, why should I? :confused:
With the banners on the top and the bottom....I like the way the top writing is off center. It's different, different can be good on websites...I think the bottom one should be similar or reversed. The fonts should match better in size...and again sorry, the color thing. I think it's that peachyness though :confused2 , with the turquoise the, the blue links, the red letters and the purple visited links.
Good Luck to you Neat Pete!
site relocation will always be a challenge.
:)
YvetteKuhns
4-1-07, 12:31 PM
I agree with the others. The color scheme is not appropriate or attractive. When discussing health, the most popular color scheme is blue and white. Many health insurance or education websites have white backgrounds with black and blue text. The image of a red circle with a line through the cigarette would stand out more.
Viewing in 800x600 screen resolution, The Non Smokers' Movement of Australia does not fit on one line, but it could. The Home link is missing from the home page but appears in the links menu on other pages. That makes the links menu inconsistent and so do other other elements in the header. That makes the text appear to jump when changing pages. I didn't like that.
The search page asks visitors to use Google to type popular search terms. I really hate seeing celebrity smokers. There are a few celebrities I like, but I wouldn't want to kiss because they smoke. That is such a turn-off! We have seen really funny no smoking ads on billboards. One showed someone looking like a donkey.
There are also scary pics like the ones I used in a speech at college to discourage smoking. They showed black lungs, birth defects and much more. I prefer to share horror stories such as how my grandmother died after years in a wheelchair and on oxygen while dying of emphysema or how my father is currently on oxygen and dying of lung cancer. Whatever it takes to discourage smoking should be done.
Where I live, children under 18 go to a local store and buy tobacco products while the township police is inside the store! I just watched another zit-faced teen walk out of that store. No one cards them. My husband knows how that bothers me and said the policeman looked almost as young as the teen who bought the crap. The policeman probably smokes, so he didn't bother to do anything about it.
I think that only liquor stores should sell tobacco products and all patrons there must be carded - no exceptions. I would prefer not to sell tobacco since there are NO benefits to the use of such products, except to the tobacco companies. Ooopss!! Sorry for the rant. I hate tobacco.
The About page had links and no information. There should be at least one paragraph about the mission of this organization. Actually, since there are lists of links on a few pages, perhaps an expanding links menu would be better for this website. The icons in front of the links in the lists are not necessary. The font size is large and spaces between each link isn't necessary, either. You would be able to fit more on a page, if you resize and condense.
Please exchange links or visit sites such as No Smoking Day (http://www.nosmokingday.org.uk/smokers/index.htm) which just passed, but has a nice website.
Neat Pete
4-1-07, 08:53 PM
Dear Yvette,
Thanks for your input. I knew you would post something. Usually we agree, but this time I disagree with a lot of what you say, especially about smoking. Much of what you say about smoking is not supported by research findings. I am writing a post in an editor to cover most the points on web design raised so far. Perhaps a separate post on smoking would be best.
Neat Pete
YvetteKuhns
4-2-07, 08:13 PM
Perhaps a separate post on smoking would be best.
If I wanted to provide proof or testimonials of smokers or ex-smokers, I could do that elsewhere. Everyone knows smoking is unhealthy.
Protecting the rights of the Non-smoking majority from tobacco smoke and from the tobacco industry's propaganda.
The website purpose could be better served with more truths to balance the contents with cartoons and other contents. Medical reports, statistics and photographs are very important sources of information. The website may now receive more visits from nonsmokers who want to breathe clean air.
If you can get smokers to visit the website who want to quit smoking, that would be great. You want smokers to feel like nonsmokers are not ganging up on them, but rather, nonsmokers want what is best for everyone. There are support groups for people who try to quit smoking and even incentives from medical insurance companies. At least, that is the case here.
When I look at a website, I don't just look at the web design. I also look at the amount of related contents and the organization of contents. The main links now show lists of links. If you can get visitors to information in less clicks, that would be better.
Neat Pete
4-4-07, 01:09 PM
Points from Kitchensink108
==========================
(1) Whew. I kind of tore it apart. Take most of what I said with a grain of salt. As always, a lot of things are nit-picks.
A: Nit picking is what usability is about (unfortunately), it's not about re-design which just creates a fresh set of problems.
(2) The layout seems to be clean and functional. It works in 800x600 and 1024x768, and Firefox (the code, while not great, seems to be cross-browser compatible), so I think I can safely assume it'll work in all common browsers and resolutions.
Thanks, the philosophy is called "works in any browser" not "works best in Netscape 3" or whatever it was.
(3) However, the design isn't all that great. It's rather bland right now.
It's very plain. Not even any CSS!!! Any surfer can figure out how to use it in a few seconds!!!
(4) First, with the banner, you might try doing something a bit more graphical. Right now it's just a low-quality GIF of a no-smoking sign followed by header text and smaller italicized sub-header text. My main suggestion for this would be to use a higher quality no-smoking sign and integrate it slightly better (right now, with its white background, it looks like it was just tossed on there).
A: I have thought about this on quite a bit and have built other web sites with a better banner, but I have decided not to do this for now. I'm a terrible graphics designer.
(5) Also, the same image is shown at the bottom of the screen, except scaled to a different size. Because it's the exact same image, but a different size, it appears even more low quality than the top version and just looks bad.
A: This is a big problem. It was just quick and dirty years ago, and here we are, 2007, and it's still going. It looks bad, especially on short pages, and it has the jaggies a bit. On long pages, it's a good reminder.
(6) Actually, I think just removing the bottom no-smoking sign might be a good idea. I think it'll look better if that box (containing the address and recently updated) was smaller.
A: I have thought about this quite a bit, but to no finality. I don't have anything decent to replace it with, and I don't want to remove it entirely. One thought would be to remove the address off all pages (except the contact page) and move the slogan from the top to the bottom. Any thoughts welcome on this idea.
(7) I'd prefer content on the main page instead of links. It makes it really redundant as the same links are displayed right above the content area.
A: Most web sites have content on the main page, or at least headline news. Many web sites are very cluttered as a result. It's true the menu is redundant, it matches the links exactly, this worries me more than the lack of content. However I hear search engines like pages that have content. It has the key words but not the content. My plan is to leave it alone for now.
(8) I don't see the point of the search page. You give a list of the most common smoking-related search terms on Google, but for no apparent reason. It kind of seems like you're trying to entice the user to search, like you're trying to get a user who wouldn't otherwise feel the need to use the search box to use it, and I'm not entirely certain what the point of that would be. It might be a better idea to make the search box smaller and include it on an out-of-the-way area on every page, as opposed to giving it its own page.
A: Actually the recommended position for a search box and button is top-right on each page. I haven't got the confidence (or time) to put the search code on every page, so I did a separate screen linking to the Google code which has been tweaked in about nine tiny ways. Only recently I added all the text, and you made me realise that it refers to the Web and not to the site. My original intention was to allow searching of the site, especially the newsletters. In practice there is not much searching going on, and I doubt if many people are reading the text with the suggested phrases. (Actually doing these searches finds lots of wacky stuff, including a lot of animals smoking and a lot of people who should be in prison.)
(9) The no-smoking logo doesn't appear on every page. The bullets on the newsletters page don't show up. Double-check your URLs.
Fixed.
(10) It's good that you're using some images, but your selection is really low and fairly low-quality.
Off the web. Except the pics in the newsletters, which are scanned off prints, and usually after they had been trimmed with a scissors, yuk. All pretty quick and dirty.
(11) First, as with the main logo, I suggest getting rid of the white background on books.gif.
A: All these are files are so old they don't have transparency!!!
(11) I think books.gif is overused a bit, too. For instance, I don't get why its used as a bullet for the links on the main page.
A: I agree, I think I'll use it just for the Fact Sheets and see what else I can find.
(12) rednecks.jpg is a disturbing image.
A: It's meant to be, but most people laugh. There are worse.
(13) On what's new, I suggest making it so the "new" image doesn't increase the line height. Right now it makes the page look messy.
A: True, but I don't care if the spacing is a bit off. The choices are still clear.
(14) This isn't really a problem, but ask yourself, why exactly would someone need to know the exact dates of the last 5 times a page was updated? On the rare occasions I've had to know the last modified date, which was for citing in essays, I would only ever need the most recent date.
Good point. The only person interested is me, some sort of a vanity or ego trip. All will come off. One down and 42 to go.
(15) The color scheme itself is kind of bland. The vast majority of the layout is composed of large areas of solid color, separated by hard borders. Things like shadows and gradients can help make transitions from one element to another smoother. This would require a lot more image creation and coding, which might be too much effort given for a couple reasons, but I'm just throwing the ideas out there.
True. Very simple design, perhaps no design some would say. Usability not diminished.
(16) You also kind of have a lot of colors going on. Two shades of green/turquoise for the top, a peach background, green text in the banner, red text in the banner, a different red for content headers, sometimes yellow/white/other colored images, some green section headers, some black text, and many many blue links. There doesn't seem to be much consistency (except in the fact that it's the same style across all the pages).
A: I have gone to some effort to make the style the same across all pages, although some early newsletters do not comply but they get very little traffic neither. The problem is too many colours in the headings, I'll look at it from this angle. It only gets updated a few times a year, and it's hit and miss.
(17) Standard bright blue underlined links are kind of a pet peeve of mine, and I don't think bolded versions of them look very good either.
A: I'll have to disagree with you on this one. I belong to the old school, I love blue underlined links. If you make links blue and underline them, people can see instantly what's going on. Just look at Google, and much of Yahoo, and ask yourself why they do something so old fashioned. Users don't have to roll their mouse over it to see what might happen. This is at variance with most web sites where the links are coloured, and they get an underline when you roll your mouse over them just in case you are worried. These same web sites have not gone back to underlining as a method of emphasis for text - no, of course not, users might think it's a link!!!
================================================== ===============
Fron lucky13.....
(1) I agree with Kitchensink108 on the color scheme and the last five updates (but you have "resolved" to change that.
A: All the "previously updated" will gradually go.
(2) I think it's the page background color that's throwing a lot of it off....I think that simple tweak might make a huge difference. I think it's the peach with the red that's really throwing things off.
A: Sometimes I have thought the peach colour should be lighter. Any thoughts on this? yes, I know the menu colours are pretty yucky, but I'm in too deep now. See www.drs.org.au for the same code with a different colour scheme, I did the first cut about four years ago, and the woman in their office hated these colours but could not suggest any better. Four years later, and it's still running.
(More to follow, the limit is 10,000 characters on a quick post.)
Neat Pete
4-4-07, 01:17 PM
Continued from previous post....
Points from lucky13
==========================
(3) Also when I was surfing through the picture pages, I noticed that one page hadn't been updated in awhile. I would put a standard date update on all pages throughout, unless you are blogging or writing update articles, it's more uniform and it looks like the webmaster actually pops into the different pages to check on things. When I see a website dated many moons ago, I kinda wonder to myself, if the webmaster no longer cares, why should I?
A: That feeling is a worry. Some pages have not been updated for years. But I usually remember to update the date on the main page to match the newest page. I hate the idea of providing today's date automatically. The real answer is to make some time and put up more of the wacky pics I have collected from the net. I hate web sites that have no dates, I try to have a date on every page, and a real date at that, not "today" generated by code.
(4) With the banners on the top and the bottom....I like the way the top writing is off center. It's different, different can be good on websites...I think the bottom one should be similar or reversed. The fonts should match better in size...and again sorry, the color thing. I think it's that peachyness though , with the turquoise the, the blue links, the red letters and the purple visited links.
A: It's just a layout trick to right justify the text in the heading. I like it. It's the best one can do without a proper graphic logo.
(5) Good Luck to you Neat Pete!
A: Many thanks for your input.
===================================
from Yvette Kuhns
Note: The points here are mainly about the design, the smoking points will be covered at a later date!!
(1) I agree with the others. The color scheme is not appropriate or attractive. When discussing health, the most popular color scheme is blue and white. Many health insurance or education websites have white backgrounds with black and blue text. The image of a red circle with a line through the cigarette would stand out more.
A: Problem here, the web site is not about health.
(2) Viewing in 800x600 screen resolution, The Non Smokers' Movement of Australia does not fit on one line, but it could.
A: I thought it did. We need to get to the bottom of this. This PC I am writing on is only 600 by 800. At work, the PC's are higher resolution with IE. I have looked at the site in quite a few Internet Cafes, and it seemed ok. Are you fully maximised, which browser, which default font, and not set to make the font bigger. If I do Ctrl+Plus, it immediately does not fit. Also I carefully took words out of the menu line to make sure it fitted in one line. For example it says "About" now, but it used to say "About Us". Also, in my tests, the menu line wraps before the main heading wraps. I do want it to look ok in 600 x 800, although this segment now is only about 10% of the total.
(3) The Home link is missing from the home page but appears in the links menu on other pages. That makes the links menu inconsistent and so do other other elements in the header. That makes the text appear to jump when changing pages. I didn't like that.
A: I tend to agree. I have put back the words Home Page, but it's not a link. Also I have altered this page a bit behind the scenes to get a better layout when it prints.
(4) The search page asks visitors to use Google to type popular search terms. I really hate seeing celebrity smokers.
A: They are pretty gross. Especially the Britster as the papers call her here. But Paris Hilton shopped in my local newsagent only recently. The couple who run it proudly showed me the charge docket with her signature. In the log analysis the main search strings leading to the site (mostly from Google) are celebrity smokers and smoking celebrities. Also smoking statistics, smoking jokes, quotes about smoking. Most of the evidence points to saying the main users are Australian school children doing school projects.
(5) <snip> I hate tobacco.
A: Me too.
(6) The About page had links and no information. There should be at least one paragraph about the mission of this organization. Actually, since there are lists of links on a few pages, perhaps an expanding links menu would be better for this website. The icons in front of the links in the lists are not necessary. The font size is large and spaces between each link isn't necessary, either. You would be able to fit more on a page, if you resize and condense.
A: It's a very simple choice on the About page, with room for expansion. The links work, I can't see a problem, although two of the links had big trouble on the first day on PowWeb. True, there is no mission statement, I'll think about that one. Most site visitors avoid this stuff like the plague, unless they want to contact you.
(7) Please exchange links or visit sites such as No Smoking Day which just passed, but has a nice website.
A: We get link exchange requests all the time. It's always from people trying to make money - they run Quitting programmes. I don't care about smokers like that, in fact quite the reverse, I have been thinking about removing the links page about quitting entirely. On Tuesday night the committee agreed. As a general principle, I would advice people to exchange links with nobody - they have probably sent out 1000 emails, and exchanging will benefit them, not you. If they think your site is relevant and has good content, they will link to it anyway. A better plan is to have links inbound from a few of the big players for your topic, and to have good content to ensure a high place in Google. And have some pages good enough to be given in Wikipedia as a reference.
Neat Pete
=========================================
Putting Dates on Web Pages - notes from a newsletter last week. Quote:
Ensuring your website appears up-to-date is crucial for encouraging first-time visitors to enter into the site. As the Internet grows, the number of 'abandoned' websites is increasing at a tremendous rate. Even if you think you've got a well known brand, first-time visitors may not have heard of you and/or may not know what you do with your website - reassure them by following these essential guidelines:
* Use dates
Nothing can convince site visitors your site is up-to-date like dates can. Providing today's date can be useful but far superior is providing dates within context next to certain items (see point 2 below for examples). To further promote the image of being up-to-date be sure to include the year in the date (this is particularly important if the gap between dates on the page is more than a few weeks).
* Have 'latest' or 'most recent' items
Using words such as 'latest' or 'most recent' can also serve to promote the image of recency on any website. Items which can typically be used for this include news, events, reviews, articles, new products etc. As per above, do make sure each of the items listed in these sections has an accompanying date.
* Continually update content & images on homepage
Site visitors are of course likely to return to your site if they perceive new content is regularly being published. Returning site visitors will likely enter via your homepage so do keep this page regularly updated to create the illusion of a regularly updated website. A simple change such as using a different image on the homepage can create this effect.
==================================
I'm not the world's best critic, but I'm am 23 and part of the fancy design boom. The site itself with the information itself presented is great. The problem is visual attraction. Why not check out some sites for cheap button designs. Also the color is err. I would just work abit on the graphics. Other than that, the site info is awesome.
Have a good one,
Eric
http://www.ffholy.com
jrblindman
4-13-07, 11:07 PM
It's pretty political but I guess that is your purpose.
Neat Pete
4-20-07, 05:06 PM
Dear jrblindman,
You are spot on, it's political. The aim is to laugh at smokers. It's last years fashion, something for people who are poor, lower class and stupid.
The main users of the site are schoolies and students. The trashier the smokers the better. Disbelief and laughter. There is enormous interest here in Nicole Kidman's smoking - more than any other aspect of her films or personality.
You may want to consider that some who smoke may take offense to your posts. Those who are not poor, lower class or stupid.
HalfaBee
4-20-07, 05:49 PM
I don't think Pete is of a mind to consider smokers.
Yes some smokers are not poor and lower class, but they are all stupid to some extent.
I hate seeing young girls&boys standing around in a cloud of smoke trying to look cool.
I also hate walking down streets being inflicted with second hand smoke, my wife nearly died from second hand smoke, so I am a bit touchy about the whole issue.
YvetteKuhns
4-20-07, 06:43 PM
Yes some smokers are not poor and lower class, but they are all stupid to some extent.
Stupid is not the most accurate word, but to nonsmokers who have suffered from secondhand smoke, the loss of loved ones or smoke damage may choose to say that. I attended a college that can be seen from a mile away, because it was surrounded by smoke! They were certainly not poor to afford $17,000 a year for school (at that time) and not lower class. They were even aware of the risks of smoking. We may feel they are inconsiderate, and many are, when they smoke in public. But some people choose to smoke to relieve stress and not just to look cool.
My father probably started smoking in the army. I worked with a woman who said she did. Smoking is addictive and a very difficult habit to break. When asking teens to quit smoking, that is even harder than telling people not to start. The website in this review targets younger people who may feel more mature or important when they smoke. This misconception has been illustrated in the humorous images of celebrities and others. But what if this is NOT the reason for smoking?
Are there surveys to ask why anyone started smoking and/or continues to smoke? Do these surveys ask for gender, age, ethnic background, income, schooling and other factors? I wonder if the reason for starting to smoke and the reason for continuing to smoke are the same or different. My dad continued to smoke to relieve stress at times. He tried to quit many times before having chest pains that scared him into quitting. Quitting is difficult and will become more difficult as time passes or if people smoke more than two packs a day.
I do not want to offend smokers. I would like to understand why they smoke and why they don't want or try to quit. I cannot see a benefit to smoking, though smokers claim that it calms them. You can take a five minute break and put something else in your mouth. (I will leave it up to you to choose what. It could be a breath mint. No insult intended.)
If I was making this website, I would really want to show visitors examples of all people: nonsmokers, exsmokers and smokers. Help those who want to quit and learn tolerance for each other. I really can't tolerate when people smoke near my food, though. I just can't taste the food. My late grandmother used to smoke while cooking/eating food, until she was on oxygen.
OK, I apologize for making this thread go entirely off topic. Now, let's try to get it back to the design of Neat Pete's website.
Thanks.
YvetteKuhns
4-20-07, 07:06 PM
Well, I am partly guilty for mentioning the topic of his website and possible contents to improve the website. The topic and target audience are important to consider when designing a website. Now that this has been defined for us, we can make better comments. I was thinking of a more general audience and not just nonsmokers wish to keep young people from smoking.
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