Why the disparity between engines?

David Byrnes · 1-31-05, 12:09 PM

I know that different search engine have different criteria for their ranking algorithms, but when I did a search in MSN, Yahoo, and Google for our primary keywords, here's the ranking for our site.

MSN #1
Yahoo #53
Google #669

This sucks! I can accept #53 in Yahoo (though we were at #12 before my boss paid someone else to redesign our site, and it was all in frames with flash, and I've been slowly changing it, getting rid of frames,adding text links at the bottom of the pages, etc.) but #669 in Google? What can I do?
David Byrnes
Spanish in Action

rainbore · 1-31-05, 01:00 PM

You actually have the answer, of course. The three major search engines use different ranking methods. Given the nature of the web, for all but the most arcane or site-specific search terms, any given web page is going to be competing against several thousand, if not several million, other web pages for the top rankings. So the percentile difference in your results across the three engines is really not that big, although the upshot for your site certainly is. This is why search engine optimization is a head-scratching ordeal.

You'll often see what percentage of users use each search engine, but my experience is that Google still dominates. Not Microsoft-like domination, but certainly over 70% of searches. So, that's where I would suggest you focus your efforts. Google's ranking methods are dominated by incoming links. Most people have heard of Google's famous "PageRank" system of quantifying the number and quality of the links that point to a web page, but they are also very sensitive to the <a>nchor text used in those links - that is, the text that appears between the <a> and the </a> tags in the HTML code for the link. So for Google, a page will rank better for a given set of keywords if those keywords appear in the <a>nchor text of the links that point to that page more often than they do for competing pages. So its important to use keyword-rich <a>nchor text in the internal links on your own site, and to request that your link exchange partners also use them in the links they use for your site. Google also gives a good deal of weight to the <title> tag. You should make sure that every page on your site has a focused and concise <title>. Similarly, <h>eadline tags are valuable for rankings in Google. From there, Google is not much concerned with the content of a web page for ranking purposes in terms of conventional optimization factors like keyword density.

Yahoo! is also sensitive to links, and seems to be moving more toward the Google PageRank model in a sense, but largely seems to me to be based strictly on sheer quantity of links. And unlike Google, although the page <title> and <h>eadline tags are more important, Yahoo! is very sensitive to on-page factors like keyword density. Mentioning your keywords early and often (within sensible limits) will often do you a world of good in Yahoo!

MSN is still a bit of a mystery. It seems to be a hybrid of Google and Yahoo! in that it is senstitive to both <a>nchor text and keyword density. But I've only started to really look at MSN's methods and since they're still officially in "beta", you can expect their methods and results to change significantly in the coming months. Its a good idea to keep an eye on MSN Search since its sure to become a much larger player in the search engine market in the future.

While playing the search engine game to the hilt is a mind-numbing maze game of "gotcha", the basic principles of doing well in all of them are pretty simple. Make content-rich, well-structured web pages that are designed for usability, and get other web sites whose main topic is related to yours to link to your site and your site will do well in the search engines. Good luck!

David Byrnes · 1-31-05, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainbore

<h>eadline tags are valuable for rankings in Google.

Okay, I'm still learning html, and have no idea what a headline tag is, or how it's used. Could you explain this please?

The other suggestions all make sense, and I've been aggresively setting up link swaps with travel, tourism, and education related sites, so that should help. I'm going to be concentrating on this aspect more over the next months.

Thanks

rainbore · 1-31-05, 03:37 PM

<h>eadline tags are pretty much what you'd expect. They are used to present topical headings for your web pages. They come in 6 or seven sizes from <h1> down to <h6>, and I usually think of them as working like topic headers in an outline or table of contents.

Quote:

<h1>Page Theme</h1>
<h2>Major Subject #1</h2>
<h3>Major Subheading</h3>
<h3>Major Subheading</h3>
<h2>Major Subject #2</h2>
<h3>Major Subheading</h3>
<h3>Major Subheading</h3>

and so forth.

David Byrnes · 1-31-05, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainbore

<h>eadline tags are pretty much what you'd expect. They are used to present topical headings for your web pages. They come in 6 or seven sizes from <h1> down to <h6>, and I usually think of them as working like topic headers in an outline or table of contents.

Thanks. This will work well with several of the pages on our site.

corey snyder · 1-31-05, 11:21 PM

there is a glitch in google... it ranks the 'negitive' before the 'postive'. It will display someone being killed before someone winning a peace prize. weird huh...

for added search put some negitive info in your tags that relate to your sites subject matter.
also.. google runs off of a 'linked site' rank too.. the more sites that are linked to you the better your rank..

http://www.submitshop.com/freesubmit/100engines.html >> this is the place to go to register for free.. every search engine you can think of.

good luck
corey

rainbore · 2-1-05, 01:11 AM

Using automated submission tools is not something I'd recommend. First of all, if you have at least one link from a quality website then all three of the major search engines will find your site from that link. And if you want to try to hurry the process along, the big three - Google, Yahoo!, and MSN - all have free submission pages. Those three comprise something over 85% of all online searches, if not more.

There are pitfalls with registering with some automated search tools - usually involving getting a large increase in SPAM. Since its totally unnecessary anyway, I'd avoid all of these submission services.

David Byrnes · 2-1-05, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainbore

MSN is still a bit of a mystery. It seems to be a hybrid of Google and Yahoo! in that it is senstitive to both <a>nchor text and keyword density. But I've only started to really look at MSN's methods and since they're still officially in "beta", you can expect their methods and results to change significantly in the coming months. Its a good idea to keep an eye on MSN Search since its sure to become a much larger player in the search engine market in the future.

Well, as of today, MSN is no longer in beta!

I'm going to definitely watch them to see what happens with my site ranking.

David Byrnes · 2-3-05, 02:09 PM

A question regarding the <h>eadline tags. Do I have to start with an <h1> tag, or can I start with <h2>. The reason being that <h1> is just too big for the layout of the site.

LordGoliath · 2-3-05, 02:41 PM

You could redfine your H1 tag using a stylesheet like this:

h1 {
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 12px;
}

You would put the above or similar into your CSS file and that way you could have the H1 text look anyway you like, and if I am not mistaken still benefit from using headline tags.

James

2-1-05, 01:11 AM	#7
rainbore Rick Join Date: May 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 1,695 Reputation: 280	Using automated submission tools is not something I'd recommend. First of all, if you have at least one link from a quality website then all three of the major search engines will find your site from that link. And if you want to try to hurry the process along, the big three - Google, Yahoo!, and MSN - all have free submission pages. Those three comprise something over 85% of all online searches, if not more. There are pitfalls with registering with some automated search tools - usually involving getting a large increase in SPAM. Since its totally unnecessary anyway, I'd avoid all of these submission services. __________________ Rick Trethewey

1-31-05, 12:09 PM	#1
David Byrnes Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Costa Rica Posts: 588 Reputation: 30	Why the disparity between engines? I know that different search engine have different criteria for their ranking algorithms, but when I did a search in MSN, Yahoo, and Google for our primary keywords, here's the ranking for our site. MSN #1 Yahoo #53 Google #669 This sucks! I can accept #53 in Yahoo (though we were at #12 before my boss paid someone else to redesign our site, and it was all in frames with flash, and I've been slowly changing it, getting rid of frames,adding text links at the bottom of the pages, etc.) but #669 in Google? What can I do? David Byrnes Spanish in Action

1-31-05, 01:00 PM	#2
rainbore Rick Join Date: May 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 1,695 Reputation: 280	You actually have the answer, of course. The three major search engines use different ranking methods. Given the nature of the web, for all but the most arcane or site-specific search terms, any given web page is going to be competing against several thousand, if not several million, other web pages for the top rankings. So the percentile difference in your results across the three engines is really not that big, although the upshot for your site certainly is. This is why search engine optimization is a head-scratching ordeal. You'll often see what percentage of users use each search engine, but my experience is that Google still dominates. Not Microsoft-like domination, but certainly over 70% of searches. So, that's where I would suggest you focus your efforts. Google's ranking methods are dominated by incoming links. Most people have heard of Google's famous "PageRank" system of quantifying the number and quality of the links that point to a web page, but they are also very sensitive to the <a>nchor text used in those links - that is, the text that appears between the <a> and the </a> tags in the HTML code for the link. So for Google, a page will rank better for a given set of keywords if those keywords appear in the <a>nchor text of the links that point to that page more often than they do for competing pages. So its important to use keyword-rich <a>nchor text in the internal links on your own site, and to request that your link exchange partners also use them in the links they use for your site. Google also gives a good deal of weight to the <title> tag. You should make sure that every page on your site has a focused and concise <title>. Similarly, <h>eadline tags are valuable for rankings in Google. From there, Google is not much concerned with the content of a web page for ranking purposes in terms of conventional optimization factors like keyword density. Yahoo! is also sensitive to links, and seems to be moving more toward the Google PageRank model in a sense, but largely seems to me to be based strictly on sheer quantity of links. And unlike Google, although the page <title> and <h>eadline tags are more important, Yahoo! is very sensitive to on-page factors like keyword density. Mentioning your keywords early and often (within sensible limits) will often do you a world of good in Yahoo! MSN is still a bit of a mystery. It seems to be a hybrid of Google and Yahoo! in that it is senstitive to both <a>nchor text and keyword density. But I've only started to really look at MSN's methods and since they're still officially in "beta", you can expect their methods and results to change significantly in the coming months. Its a good idea to keep an eye on MSN Search since its sure to become a much larger player in the search engine market in the future. While playing the search engine game to the hilt is a mind-numbing maze game of "gotcha", the basic principles of doing well in all of them are pretty simple. Make content-rich, well-structured web pages that are designed for usability, and get other web sites whose main topic is related to yours to link to your site and your site will do well in the search engines. Good luck! __________________ Rick Trethewey

1-31-05, 11:21 PM	#6
corey snyder Registered Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Maryland Posts: 19 Reputation: 5	there is a glitch in google... it ranks the 'negitive' before the 'postive'. It will display someone being killed before someone winning a peace prize. weird huh... for added search put some negitive info in your tags that relate to your sites subject matter. also.. google runs off of a 'linked site' rank too.. the more sites that are linked to you the better your rank.. http://www.submitshop.com/freesubmit/100engines.html >> this is the place to go to register for free.. every search engine you can think of. good luck corey

2-3-05, 02:09 PM	#9
David Byrnes Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Costa Rica Posts: 588 Reputation: 30	A question regarding the <h>eadline tags. Do I have to start with an <h1> tag, or can I start with <h2>. The reason being that <h1> is just too big for the layout of the site.

2-3-05, 02:41 PM	#10
LordGoliath Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: MN Posts: 135 Reputation: 5	You could redfine your H1 tag using a stylesheet like this: h1 { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; } You would put the above or similar into your CSS file and that way you could have the H1 text look anyway you like, and if I am not mistaken still benefit from using headline tags. James